Monday, July 1, 2024

Boxing Esq. Podcast #62 Jason Cruz (with rough transcript)

My guest this week is Jason Cruz, from and the Legal Submission podcast. Jason writes about MMA and Boxing and is yet another member of one of my favorite MMA podcasts - Show Money. We spoke about the New York State Athletic Commission's Consent Order suspending and fining Ryan Garcia for his positive anti-doping test after his April bout with Devin Haney. We also discussed the UFC antitrust case and Jason's ideas about improving the Ali Act. I really enjoyed the discussion - I hope you do too. ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF BEP #62 Jason Cruz Welcome to the boxing Esquire podcast. It is my pleasure to have as my guest this week, attorney extraordinaire Jason Cruz. He's, uh, he's got an excellent website on combat sports called MMA Payout and a YouTube channel that features his musings on the legal side of combat sports titled The Legal Submission. Um, and he's also one third of the team, along with, uh, last week's guest, John Nash and Paul Gift of my favorite Combat Sports Business podcast show Money. Uh, Jason and I discussed the consent order that was released today regarding, uh, Ryan Garcia, uh, and the specifics of the suspension and fines handed down by the New York State Athletic Commission. We also got briefly, uh, into the decision of the judge and the UFC antitrust litigation to, uh, not immediately approve the proposed settlement. Um, and finally, we, uh, discussed a presentation Jason recently made at the Sports Lawyers Association conference about making changes to the ALI Act. Uh, it was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Hope you do too. So, in my never ending quest, uh, to bring show money to the boxing Esquire podcast, I have as my guest today, Jason Cruz, uh, attorney, uh, par Excellence, uh, from the State of Washington. Uh, also a member of the show Money Crew, uh, to talk about the, uh, Ryan Garcia suspension. Um, seems like there might be some, some dog fights going on in , Jason. It's okay. Hold on for one. Okay. Sorry about that. Sorry about That. . Uh, okay. We we're, we're back on. We're Back on. Back on. So, so, so, and, uh, he, so we, we brought him to the podcast and, uh, welcome to the Boxing Escar podcast. Uh, Jason, Thank you so much. I'm, I've been a big fan of your, uh, podcast for a long time, and thank you for, uh, bringing, bringing the show money, uh, crew back one, one guy at a time, . So, uh, I, I, I don't know if we've officially broken up, but, uh, you know, I haven't got received a letter in the mail yet, so, . I know, I know. You know, bloody Elbow is no longer, we're all sad about that. And, uh, you know, and John's kind of got his own thing going now with Hey, not the face. So, um, yeah. I mean, I, well, I guess, you know, you know, Hey, why, why bury the lead? So, is there any plans to do, uh, any more show money podcast? Well, I, I'll tell you, breaking news, well, not really breaking youth, but, um, I actually, Paul gift, Dr. Paul gift, he, he's actually going to be in Seattle next week. Uh, we all have decided to meet for, for drinks. Uh, and I'll ask him at that point, maybe, maybe we'll do a special show Money from the Bar and we'll bring in, bring in John to do as well. But, uh, you know, actually no, no, I, I'm not sure, um, obviously, uh, John has his, his own, uh, podcast, which I, uh, follow as well. And, uh, Crip notes from, from it. Uh, but I don't know if there at any point we will, we'll get together, but it's always welcome. I'm sure once this, some of this UFC antitrust stuff, um, is finalized. We'll have a, we'll have a reunion episode, I guess, . Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, that's something I, you know, I, I, I might ask you about that a little later in the podcast, the whole, uh, the whole settlement being rejected and so on. But, but first, uh, let, let's, let's get into your background. So where are you from originally, Jason? Yeah, so I'm from Seattle, Washington, uh, born and raised in Seattle. Uh, I, uh, went to, uh, college locally, university of Washington, and went straight through to, uh, law school, um, at UDub. Then I, uh, I detoured, I mean, I practiced law out here in Seattle for three or four years, uh, hung out and, uh, actually went down to Southern California for a little bit where I practiced. Um, um, a lot. My, my first five to seven years of my, uh, law career has been, was in litigation, doing, doing a lot of, uh, just, uh, commercial and civil litigation, a lot of business, uh, business disputes, stuff like that. And then moved back to Seattle, practiced a little more here, and then decided to open up my own shop in 2011. Um, that, that actually, uh, when I came back to Seattle, I actually, uh, started getting interested in writing. And, uh, lo and behold, um, there was a website called mma that was looking for a writer. And apparently I was the, I was the pick the guy that was picked out of a national search, or maybe a global search, let's say, global . That sounds more impressive. Um, but, and, and then I've been with them ever since. They decided they were bought out actually, um, in 2016, I wanna believe, I believe. And they were going to just close the door on the website, and I decided to pick it up. And I actually had offered, um, Adam Swift, who was the, uh, guy in charge at the time, um, if, uh, I had to buy the, buy the website. And he said, don't worry about it. He just gave it to me, gave, gave the loss. I gave the, gave the, uh, uh, website to me. So I had, I, I, I took it over as the owner and, uh, operator of MMA payout for, uh, the last five, six years. Nice, nice, nice. Yeah, I, I recommend anyone, uh, go to, uh, MMA payout if you're interested in the business of, uh, combat sports. 'cause, 'cause, uh, it not only tracks MMA, but you also, uh, you know, do boxing articles and, um, I mean, you know, last I checked, you know, you, you, if they're, if someone reports purses and all that, like, you know, you kind of catalog, uh, a lot of that stuff, which, you know, as you know, if you're a manager of fighters out there, it's very valuable, very valuable information. So it's a, it's a's great Website. It used to be easier. I'm, I'm sure, you know, it used to be easier to catalog purses and ratings, and, you know, it's just harder to, uh, to find that information. Now, I, I'm, I, I'm sure you, uh, you, you know, more than I about, uh, obtaining public disclosures of purses and things of that nature. It's, it's, it's getting a little harder with, with the states reporting that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. You did a, a pretty good webinar on that, uh, for the Sports Lawyers Association. I remember . Yeah, Yeah, yeah. That was one of the subjects how commissions are not disclosing things anymore. Uh, which, uh, which, you know, it's, it's, uh, I'm not sure that I agree with them. In fact, I don't agree with them at all. It's all supposed to be about Sunshine laws and, you know, and I mean, you know, oh, the, oh, the fighters don't want people to know what they're making, okay. So, you know, athletes and every other sport that's, you know, worth its salt, you know, everyone knows what they're making a year, but, oh, but combat sports athletes, you know, who are making opinions compared to, to that shouldn't, you know, shouldn't disclose. I just, I, I don't buy it. But, um, but anyways, yes. So, um, you also, um, you know, you, like we had said, you, uh, you were part of, uh, still are part of, to, to, until further notice the, uh, the Show Money podcast, which is one of my all time favorite podcasts about the business side of combat sports. And you have your own, uh, uh, legal podcast, the legal submission. Uh, yes. And, uh, where can people find that? Uh, on my YouTube, which is, uh, at Jason Cruz, I believe on YouTube, uh, you can also go to MMA payout. I post them, post them there, and there are short snippets about, uh, if there is a boxing MMA or professional wrestling lawsuit out there, I usually will give you a 10 minute snippet about what to expect. I did a lot, uh, intensive, more intense, uh, uh, more intensive, uh, look at the, uh, UFC antitrust lawsuit, simply because that was a big one to go over. But we also got into a, if you go back, back into the ca, and I'm, I'm working on cataloging these people, but, um, if you go back into, there's about 80 episodes where I go into a lot of the boxing lawsuits. Uh, the Manny Pack, I was of Floyd Mayweather lawsuits. Uh, the, uh, I think the big one that I, i, I initially started covering was the Alexander Pul Pul Kin Deontay Wilder lawsuit. Oh, yeah. Or kin had the, uh, floating floating, uh, uh, uh, banned substances in his body. But, uh, yeah, so, so, uh, it's, it definitely, if you have some time and or whatnot, go ahead and download those, those podcasts on YouTube , yeah, the Pakin case and, and Wilder. I remember writing quite a bit about that when I was doing my blog on, uh, box of Yeah. That, that was just an absolutely bananas case, um, with, uh, you know, the goalpost being pushed, you know, by, uh, by wada. And, you know, the, the court kind of fumbling it. The WBC continually fumbling it, it was just a, a comedy of errors case. Just crazy case. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but speaking of drug cases, this is, uh, I, I brought Mr. Cruz on today to talk about, um, the suspension that's been handed down to Ryan Garcia, uh, came out, uh, the news came out a couple days ago, the actual, uh, consent decree, uh, by the New York State Athletic Commissioner. The consent order, I should say it's the title of the document, um, just was released today. Um, Dan Raphael, uh, posted it on his, uh, substack. Um, I had actually spoken to, uh, the attorney for, uh, Devin Haney today, uh, pat English. And, you know, he was saying that, you know, he was, you know, asking them to kind of make it public. So I guess it's, it's now a, a public document, but, um, pretty interesting here. So, so Ryan gets, you know, well, first of all, he tested positive for Oster, which is a Sarm , uh, um, but, you know, we, I guess we could go into what a arm is, but it's, it's something, you know, I, I, I don't think these, these, uh, products have actually, they're actually on the market. Um, they're still in the testing phase. Um, so it's, it's not easy to, uh, to obtain this stuff. Um, but, uh, so, so he tests positive for this, um, basically Vada, you know, uh, Vada is the one that catches him. Um, ultimately the commission, um, tests him and, and they find the ostern in there as well. But, um, so he gets a one year suspension backdated to the date of the fight, which was April 20th. Um, he has to forfeit, um, his purse, uh, $1.1 million, and that goes back to Golden Boy. And also he's fined the, the, the max that the New York State Athletic Commission can find him, um, $10,000. Um, and the result of the bout is change to a no contest. So, my question to you, Jason, did you think this was sufficient punishment for, for Ryan, for, for testing positive for Oster? You know, it, it's interesting because, uh, a couple things, uh, and I, I, maybe I could actually lean on you for this because, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong, he also missed weight, right? So, um, I believe wasn't he supposed to forfeit 30% of his, uh, purse over to DA Devin Haney as well? I, I think, I mean, this was, you know, this, this is always when a fighter, Mrs. Wait, uh, I mean, especially in boxing, I don't know how they do it in, in UFC, but the managers negotiate generally. Um, and the fighter who missed weight generally has to pay part of his purse to, uh, to the opponent. Some commissions get involved and, and take a piece as well. Um, you know, if you miss weight, um, they'll take a piece of that, and then they'll, they'll break some off to the, uh, to the, to the other fighter. But, yeah. Um, apparently, you know, I, I'm not sure, 'cause they had a very public press conference where, you know, they shook hands on some sort of like, million dollar, you know, I, I forget. There was like, you know, it was a, like a ton of money per pound, right? And, and, and Garcia like, um, said, yeah, yeah, let's do that. And, uh, and then he missed by like three pounds. So, and, and, uh, he claims that he paid that over to Devin. I think he came out to over a million dollars. Uh, oh. Yeah. So, uh, so yeah, so there's, so there's that as well. But I don't think that that's at issue in the consent order. I think it's strictly, um, because that was, you know, kind of dealt with at the time of the weigh in. Um, I believe that this is, this is pretty much just all about, um, you know, testing positive for A PED. So, so, yeah. But, But to get to your, but to get to the question, you know, it's obviously what was expected if you are, uh, are, are found, uh, guilty, or if you, uh, do not, do not pass a drug test, or in the alternative, if you test positive for a banned substance, uh, certainly the statements put out by Garcia arguing that, you know, it was a, you know, uh, a tainted supplement are out there. But, you know, when you test the samples, the a a sample came back a positive, and the B sample is basically a part is, is it, correct me if I'm wrong, the A sample, the B sample is essentially a part of the a sample. They just separate the, uh, they separate the, the, those, those, those two things. But it's the same, it's from the same urine or, or urine analysis. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's all taken at the same time, otherwise, Yeah, it's all taken at the same time. So there, there, there was no real, I mean, once the, a sample test positive, there's, there's no real hope that the B sample is going to be, uh, negative. But it, regardless, it, it goes to, I guess, the recklessness. You could, uh, uh, at perceived by recklessness, uh, per perceived by Brian Garcia, he, he seemed very out of, out of character for someone who's going to head into a boxing match, uh, uh, going into that week. Um, and it would, you ma most people probably expected something wack, wacky like this to happen with Ryan. Now, the, the, the forfeiture of the entire person seems, it seems like a lot. Uh, um, I don't recall if that's the, the, the, what you can do, um, the, the full max that, that this has happened in the past where someone forfeits a million bucks. But this is, this is a hefty, uh, penalty, which I don't think, I don't, I don't believe Ryan is appealing. Um, also the fact that New York, uh, re uh, ins installed the 10 million, $10,000, excuse me, the maximum amount, fine, they could, they could find Ryan shows that this was, they don't believe this was a case in which, uh, he, uh, he, uh, he did this, uh, you know, he, he didn't do the, he, uh, they don't believe he, it was an accident, but still, I mean, his whole act throughout the whole, uh, the, the whole whole fight with Debon ha Haney was really, really, uh, uh, something to behold. And, uh, a little ridiculous. And, uh, now we see that perhaps there was something else going on. Now, obviously, for Garcia's perspective, uh, he could say, well, this, this, you know, this amount of aing in my system really didn't help me when I was, uh, clearly beating Devin Haney up throughout the fight. But still, again, um, uh, how, what Austrian does in, in, in helping a fighter, uh, could help them at least in the training process. Yeah, that's that, I mean, that's, that's a completely, you know, uh, you know, that's a whole nother question when you're talking about, you know, did this substance actually make a difference in the performance ? I mean, I don't know that you can even quantify that. Yeah. Um, but the, one of the things you said is, yeah, I mean, this is definitely, I, I can't imagine they could appeal this because this was negotiated, um, by his attorneys with the commission. Um, this isn't just, um, like a, a pronouncement by the commission, and these guys can appeal. I mean, they literally negotiated this and signed it. I mean, if you look at the, uh, the last page, it's signed on behalf of , you know? Mm-Hmm. , um, Garcia by his attorneys. So, you know, he's basically accepted this, is this is it, you know, this is kind of the final pronouncement, and this is the deal that they struck. Um, yeah, I mean, to me, um, you know, it's a one year suspension, which backdating it to the fight, you know, is, is amounts to like a 10 month suspension, which in boxing these days with the, the fighters being so inactive, right. 10 months out of the ring , you know what I mean? I mean, yeah, going back to the fight, it would be 12 months. But, um, yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's, that part of it is a slap on the wrist. Yeah. The, the giving up a million dollars, you know, that's, that's pretty significant. Yeah. That, I mean, um, I'm surprised his attorneys, uh, gave on that. Um, and in fact, you know, it, it, it says in the, um, in the, uh, the consent order that, you know, the money goes back to Golden Boy, um, it's to return to the promoter golden boy. But in fact, you know, Haney has a revenue sharing, uh, provision in the contract for this fight. So, you know, and I, and I know Bill Haney, um, had stated in public that, that there was a split of revenues of like 55, 45 for the fight. Um, so, you know, I'm, I'm not exactly sure what the calculation's going to be on that, but I know that Pat is, you know, corresponding with, uh, Golden boy as we speak to try and track that money down for, for, for Devin. Um, so it would be split between Golden Boy and, and, and Devin Haney. Um, so that, you know, that part of it's pretty interesting. I I really, you know, the, the fact that he, he, you know, instead of letting the commission dec decide, you know, it was literally like a deal cut between, um, Garcia and the commission. Um, I was surprised. Yeah, I, I, uh, I think I, I was surprised that they didn't wanna go to a hearing. It seemed fairly swift that they wanted to get this, get this done. I'm not sure if there, there was other things out there that they were concerned would be brought up in the hearing. I don't know if they were concerned how Ryan would be as a witness . Um, and, uh, so I, it does, it does. I mean, you know, they bring up the fact that they ha they isolated the two supplements. They think were connect, contaminated. I mean, there, there, there is a viability of saying, Hey, you know, he didn't willingly do this. Although, um, you know, I, like I said, I just, I, I feel as though, um, his actions kind of did not, uh, help him as far as a cred on a credibility standpoint or a credibility platform. So if they were to go to a hearing, the commissioner or the, the, yeah, the commission would probably just say, this guy had no, you know, this guy has no idea what he's doing. That, I mean, uh, and, and, you know, maybe, I mean, I don't even know, honestly, I don't even know what more they could have done to him in this, in this, in this matter. Because when, if you think about it, they took away all of his purse money. They find him probably the max of the year, they find him the max of 10,000, uh, $10,000 from the commission. I mean, what, what if they went the hearing? What could be a, what could be worse aside for more soundbites of Brian kind of going nuts, . Yeah, seriously. I mean, uh, you know, I, I don't know, maybe, you know, I, I, I think, you know, maybe like you're saying may, maybe they could have ordered like psychological counseling or something for him, or, you know, some sort of like rehab for him. I don't know. Um, well, I think one of the things, right, like one of the things that people were wondering is like, is Ryan even mentally capable to fight of how, like his actions during fight, he is like, can this, should this guy be fighting? He's, you know, he's wacky. He has his shirt off all the time. He is, you know, at the weigh-ins, he's drinking beer, or he is perceiving, uh, he's making it look like he's drinking beer. You know, what, what's, you know, why is he doing this? When are you doing these things? But I mean, in the end, he put on a pretty darn good show. But, uh, if you're a Haney fan, you're saying, you know, Ryan cheated. Right, right, right. Yeah. I guess also going back to the hearing, I mean, the, they did, you know, I mean, they, they put up some sort of, you know, I mean, their defense is basically, they had like a hair sample done, which seems to be, you know, like the, the standard now where, uh, you know, they had like a hair sample of him done. It's like, oh, you know, there's no trace of, you know, aine in there. And I know that, uh, they also supposedly sent, uh, sent like his what whatever supplement he was taking, they like put tape around the top of it and sent it somewhere. At least I saw a picture somewhere of like, tape around the, the, the thing. And they, they, they sent it to be tested somewhere, and they were saying, oh, yeah, it's contaminated with Oline. But I mean, that off the manufacturer. So the manufacturer, like, you know, uh, sent something from the same batch, and, and I think they sent it to Don Catlin's lab in, in la, which is about as good a anti-doping lab as you can send it to. And, and, uh, they basically said they, they, they didn't find any ostern in, in, you know, in the batch. So, um, maybe that was kind of like, all right, you know, we're not going to hearing we got nothing . Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most definitely. Most definitely. Yeah. Um, yeah. But here's the, here's the part I'm, I wonder if you've ever heard of this. I'd never heard of this before. So the commission tested, all right, now, if you, if you go on, on the commission website, you check their pro prohibited list, it, uh, prohibits SARMs and, uh, and Aine. Um, and, but you know, it was reported that the New York State Athletic Commission did not test for these things initially, but then like, took the B sample, went back and tested and found Oster. So I'm just like, if it's on your prohibited list, why in the hell are you not testing for it? Like, how do, how does a commission if, if you're going to do these tests and you have a prohibited list that has to be part of the screening, you know, and, and in testing, uh, I was just, just like, that is nuts. Yeah, that's that. I, I haven't heard that. I haven't, I I haven't heard of a commission doing that. I'm not sure if it was an omission on their park or if it's something that's not done. Un unless, uh, something gets flagged. It's, it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, had VDA not, uh, you know, caught the aine, I mean, clearly the commission would not have either. So, uh, Maybe that's what happens. I mean, maybe, maybe that's why, I mean, these organizations and sanctioning bodies of promoters need, need, uh, third party testing like vada or USADA or whatever the UFC uses nowadays, simply because these commissions maybe aren't, aren't, uh, are down on, so doesn't, don't have the capacity to, to conduct all these tests and don't have the budget. Right, right. It, it probably does come down to budget. They probably like, you know, have like a standard screening that they do for, for the most likely drugs that might be in someone's system. Yeah. I mean, this one, you know, is not even on the market. So they probably like, okay, we, we've got it on the prohibited list, but, you know, we won't necessarily test for it. But that's just, I don't know, that's poor form. And, and to me, it just kind of like, it, it, it shows just how broken the anti-doping testing system is in the sport, you know? Um, you know, uh, another thing I asked Pat at the, uh, when I, when I talked to him today, was about, 'cause he's, he's also heavily involved with the A, B, C and, uh, this, this, this, um, whether a commission is like, you know, follows WADA's prohibitive list, it has come up as an issue in, in other, uh, fighters. Te I think like Oscar Valdez, um, it came up and Pat represented Oscar Valdez, and he brought up the fact that there was an A BC convention where all of the, um, commissions basically voted to, to, to use the, the, uh, the prohibited list of, of wada. And, you know, he was saying, yeah, the, the New York State Athletic Commission was a part of that. Um, and, and voted yes at the meeting. Um, I'm not sure, I mean, I'd have to look this up, but, uh, that within their actual rules and regs that they say that, you know, we we're, you know, we're using the wada, um, restricted list because they don't mention it in, on their website with their prohibited list, whether it's compliant with WADA or not. Mm-Hmm. . So, and, and we know that vada also doesn't comply with WADA's prohibited list. They test for things that watada would not have tested for, and they don't test for things that watada would've tested for. So it's just, it's just in such a, it's just such a show , you know, like, It's, it's, uh, the one thing about boxing as compared to, uh, MMA is that the boxing uses a lot of, uh, there's a lot of, uh, is alphabet soup of, of, of, uh, drug testing, uh, uh, outfits is the alphabet soup, which was sanctioning buys it's alphabet suit, uh, of titles. It's, it's, it's, whereas UFC, it's mainly just UFC, uh, you know, and if they, whatever, whoever the UFC decides is their drug testing guide. And, uh, yes, you saw it as that. I think it's, I forgot the who, who's a new UFC and, and a drug regulator. But yeah, there's boxing is, has a huge amalgamation of, uh, entities in, in it. So, Yeah. What, what's the story with, uh, you know, 'cause I, I, I, you know, you know, I remember reading about it, but not in detail. Like, you know, I know that, you know, they had usada, they had the guy, you know, who, who busted, uh, Conti basically running it, right? Mm-Hmm. . And then, uh, Yeah, NKI, no, not Judge Ky, but, um, Trey Tygar. I thought it was Jeff. I thought he was Jeff Naski. I'm sorry. Yeah, Jeff Naski is with the UFC now. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, he was running it, but then, I don't know, they ran afoul somehow with, it had to do with Conor McGregor, like you needed to be registered and Well, yeah, the whole thing I, I think came down to, uh, double things coinciding, I believe in October in which, so USADA was up for, its, they for its term. Uh, so they, they had a three, three year term, I believe, uh, UFC Sada, and it was coming up, and they were coming toward renewal, uh, the issues, uh, without, without anybody saying the issue, had to deal with Conor McGregor getting back into that, you, uh, into the USADA testing pool. And from what you can infer, uh, Conor McGregor had some issues getting back in the USADA testing pool based on perhaps what he may have been using or not using while he was out of the pool. So, uh, what the UFC, the UFC took, uh, Conor McGregor side in this, there was some back and forth between USADA and, uh, UFC and it, it coincided with the renewal. And UFC, uh, abruptly said, uh, well, actually it was Travis Tygar, uh, got on, uh, social media first indicating that they would no longer be, uh, servicing the UFC in 2024 because of X, Y, and Z. Uh, take basically taking a parting shot on the way out. And, uh, U the UFC actually held a, uh, impromptu press conference in which it was, it was threatening to sue USADA for what it was saying about, uh, how they did, how they were, uh, leaving the UFC and issues with Conor McGregor. The irony of the whole thing is that now we have a new, uh, drug regulator in the UFC. Conor McGregor was set to return actually this week, uh, on Saturday night, he was supposed to fight, but lo and behold, uh, two weeks, uh, two, uh, a couple weeks ago, uh, he hurt himself and it was revealed it was a broken pinky toe. So he's out, uh, so all that regular role and fighting over Conor McGregor's return based upon, so, I mean, obviously I think they wanted him at UFC 300, which was in April. So the timing of getting into the testing pool was a little, um, a little skewed. But regardless, uh, Connor is not back yet, and there was a whole fight over him returning early. So, uh, there you go. So we may see Connor, and, uh, there's, they're trying to pinpoint, you know, the Dana White wants to hold, have, hold a event at the sphere. I don't know if you've seen that, uh, the big thing in Vegas, but in September, uh, as part of the new, the new Mexican Independence Day celebration with, with the UFC, uh, that it, uh, that it would, they UFC would hold it event in Vegas, and they're, they're, uh, they're pinpointing the sphere for September, and they're hoping Connor's pinky will be much better, and he could fight that . Wow. Okay. All right. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I didn't know all that, um, yeah, that, that, that's interesting. Yeah, the sphere, we, we know about it here in New York, because I think Jim Dolan, the owner of the Knicks Yeah. Owns it's, uh, yeah, people always cracking on. Do you guys still hate him? That, by the way? Um, you know, the fact that he's stayed out of the Nicks business, um, , you know, and, and kind of, you know, let let the GM take over. And the GM has done a really good job of finding good players. So, uh, so yeah, he's, he's hated a little less, uh, you know, I, I, in all honesty, I think he's the reason why, like, you know, big name free agents like LeBron and, and KD and Kyrie just never signed with the Knicks, really. I think, I think Dolan is pretty much the big obstacle. No one wants to, uh, to really, uh, you know, deal with that guy. But, um, but yeah, I, I, he's not as hated, but, you know, people know he's still kind of a, so, you know, it's not, uh, not, no, no love for him, you know, just less hate probably. Um, one last thing on the, uh, on the Garcia thing, uh, you know, I'm, I'm looking through paragraph three of this thing, and it says, respondent shall continue to be medically suspended until such time that respondent provides sufficient medical evidence demonstrating to the satisfaction of the commission that respondent is, uh, medically fit to fight. I'm assuming that's like a, a normal kind of medical suspension, but it says, such medical evidence must include a urinalysis, which does not indicate a positive result for illegal and or prohibited substances as mandated by the commission indicate or including a negative result for anabolic agents, a positive result. So basically all he has to do is test like negative once. They're not gonna do anything extensive. Um, yeah. To test him . I think That that's A little disappointing, . That is, and that's usually, but that's usually the same as typical language you see when MMA fires get back in or are suspended, and they are required to provide one clean, come back in to pro, provide one clean test before you, uh, are able to fight again, which I don't know, it's, I mean, you know, you could prepare for that, I guess. Um, they, and I don't know how much, you know, uh, they would, uh, uh, Garcia's lawyers would've signed off if they would continually test him throughout af you know, uh, require him to test every time he fights. I don't know if that would be a good part, uh, a good settlement, uh, uh, for, for Garcia. So he, I mean, he has to provi, he has come back, um, and when, from whatever he's doing, he seems to be doing a lot of, uh, but, um, you know, he'll just have to come back, uh, give him a one positive, uh, test, and then he can get head back into the ring. Right. Right. Yeah, it's, uh, this is crazy. You know, I mean, at least he got the, uh, the no contest, uh, result because, you know, there's, there's another fighter out there that, you know, people have been talking about on Twitter for a while. Um, female fighter Christina Leonardo two, um, she, uh, she, um, got beat by Alicia Baumgartner back in July of 2023. Baumgartner, uh, tested positive for a couple different peds, uh, uh, using the company that, uh, that Eddie Hearn, uh, had hired for that fight. Um, the Michigan Commission was absolutely nowhere to be seen. The A BC steps in, they, they issued like an indefinite suspension. Um, then, you know, eventually they, they withdraw that the WBC had stepped in and said that, you know, they, they, they didn't see any, uh, incidents of her, you know, intentionally taking this thing. So they, they were okay with her, um, bottom line, you know. Okay. So Baumgartners cleared to fight again, but, you know, no one has reversed the result of the fight. like, it, it's still, you know, I mean, she's clearly tested positive for something and was suspended. Um, and, uh, you know, Leonardo two is, is sitting here. Okay, so where's my no contest? You know, it, it just seems, uh, you know, and considering the WB or the A, BC, I'm sorry, stepped in. And it's interesting 'cause you know, again, I, I'd spoken to Pat about this today. Um, initially when that happened, I was like, what is the A BC doing? Like, this is Michigan's case, but there's this bizarre little provision, like when you re-up for your, um, license, like you have to have a national license. Um, Mm-Hmm. according, you know, an ALI Act thing. There's a form you sign, and it basically, you, you consent to either a commission or the A, B, C stepping in and, and suspending you. So the A, b, C was within their, within their, you know, bounds to, to do this. But, um, you know, I, I don't know, you know, who, who's gonna overturn the result? , you know, I mean, what, you know, it's, it's unjust If you would, wouldn't, uh, Le le is it Le le Leonardos? It's Leonardo too. It's like, I mean, I, I'm probably pronouncing it wrong words. L-I-N-A-R-D-A-T-O-U Wouldn't her, wouldn't her representative be the ones to lobby for something like that, to get, get her loss overturned or moved at least to a no contest to, I mean, I don't, I'm not sure if anyone is that out there advocating for her on the a, b, C side, because I, it would seem as though that it is unjust and she should at least not have that l over resume. Right. Right. I mean, I, I'm pretty sure, I mean, Debella was, was her promoter. I know Alex, uh, Dom Broth had, uh, had initially tried to engage the, uh, the Michigan Commission, but I obviously he hasn't gotten anywhere with them, . 'cause uh, yeah, they, they haven't done a thing, you know, it's all been the A, B, C. So, you know, I guess, uh, good luck with that, Alex. You know, oftentimes, you know, it's, it's very hard to, to get, uh, you know, these, uh, administrators or sanctioning bodies to, uh, to, to, to do the right thing. So is this Something that you would just go on, uh, uh, and try to present new business at a, at their, their monthly hearing or something like that, or bring, bring some sort of motion to have it overturned? I know that, um, at least with Nevada, they're, they're meeting minutes there, there are fighters or boxers that want, are seeking overturning uh, uh, overturning losses for a variety of reasons. But, um, I don't know. I'm not sure if Michigan would do the same. Yeah, I mean, that's, uh, I I, I don't know that they even, like, I mean, a, according to their rules, there was supposed to be a hearing, and they were supposed to suspend her. I mean, I remember looking at the rules Mm-Hmm. . Um, but, uh, they did none of the above. They did absolutely nothing. So, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things, right? Like if you're Ryan Garcia or you're Devin Haney, and you're making millions of dollars, you can hire lawyers to, uh, to bust their for you. But like, you know, you're just, you know, uh, I mean, it's not like she's not a, a world class fighter. She is, but, you know, it costs money to hire us, Jason . Yeah. Have us advocate and, and go, you know, go to the wall to, uh, to get something done. So, and I'm not saying that her representatives haven't done that, but just, it's, it's, uh, um, it's just, it's crazy to think that, you know, I mean, even even this thing with the commission and, and Garcia took two months to resolve, you know? It, it's, it's, mm-Hmm, , it's a slow process. So, um, but, you know, with, with, I mean, and honestly, I, I, I think with Baumgartner, like the, the test results didn't even like come back to like a month or so after the fight. I mean, it's just, you know, everything happened so slow. Um, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. So, um, but hey, there was, there was one other thing I wanted to, to get to with you because, uh, I know you were at the, uh, sports Lawyers Association conference and, and Yep. And you made a presentation on, uh, kind of supplementing the, the ALI Act and things you wanted to see change, and I thought it was interesting. So, uh, so, uh, let's hear about it, man. The floor is yours. Yeah. So , basically, it was, um, by the way, if you're a sports lawyer, you should go to it. It's, it's very, they don't have too many combat sports, um, combat sports, uh, uh, presentations. They, I mean, I think it's like every, every four or five years they'll have something. Um, but, uh, I did a presentation on the ALI Act and essentially that it needs to be fixed and expanded. And I mainly, mainly, uh, what I stressed on is the fact that the ALI Act, uh, was signed into law in 2000. But it's, I mean, and it's rarely enforced. And I, I mean, the reason why I say it's rarely enforced because you go, you look through it, and you could actually go to jail, uh, for violating. They have Criminal Sanchez in the ALI Act. They have, uh, you could, uh, act as a private AG for yourself or, and or the ag could step in and enforce the ALI Act. But you, you rarely see that, see it, and you rarely see what the three state stated purposes are for the Oli Act, which is to protect the rights and welfare boxers, support the state boxing commissions with oversight and promote honorable competition, pro boxing, enhanced integrity of the industry. Now, I'm obviously preaching to the choir for the people that are in this audience of boxers, but one of the things that, uh, kinda, uh, uh, goes over into the combat sports MMA world is, uh, you know, one protecting the rights, uh, and welfare of the boxers. Now, the Ali Act more stresses more along the lines of the, the protection as in terms of finance, finances and thing, and assigning contracts, uh, making sure there's a firewall between managers and promoters, that sort of thing. So, uh, so that's what Ali act, uh, all, uh, maintains. And I, I go into certain changes that can be done with the potential, with the contracts, and obviously my, my, uh, suggestions probably do, are not run, uh, against what a promoter or manager would like. And essentially, I kind of talk about, uh, things that the, that, uh, the UFC has ran into in and of itself with the UFC antitrust lawsuit. They stressed several things within their contracts that, uh, probably coincide with what happens in boxing, which, uh, are the, the length for the length of the contract itself, the duration of, of the, of a right to match clause, the champions clause, which, uh, seems to occur, probably occurs in boxing. Kurt, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but in MMA, it happens a lot. Where if you win, if you're, if you win the championship and you are on the, uh, say last fight or, uh, of your contract, or you're, you're just wherever in your contract, the, the May, when you become champion, it automatically, uh, adds an additional X amount of years or X amount of fights to your contract automatically. It doesn't, you can't just be the champion of the u be the featherweight champion of the UFC and then leave it. It rarely happens. We saw this with Francis Nu, and his was a special case because it dealt with the sunset provisions, uh, of the, uh, contracts where the, the, the contract will end at a certain, a certain point. We, uh, a certain point, there's not a, a, uh, there's not an extension on it. So that's what happens with Nang. He didn't want, he had a five year sunset provision on his contract, and he decided, he held the firm and said, I'm not going to negotiate with the UFC. I'm not gonna take any more fights with the UFC unless they negotiate, and the UFC just let 'em go and let that contract pay. And then, so that's how he got the box, uh, Tyson Terry. Now, the, the one thing that I, and I, it'll be interesting to see your input on, is the, uh, suggestion, uh, I had put out there for, for contracts in boxing and MMA is to have two-way opt-out contracts, meaning, uh, two year, excuse me, two year two-Way opt-out contracts, meaning that you could, uh, a fighter can sign with a promotion for two years, and there is an option to, uh, to, there's, there's another two year option. So basically you, you get two years guaranteed to fight with a promotion, and then either the promotion or the fighter can, uh, can opt into the, the final two years, meaning that, hey, uh, similar to, uh, player, ex player extensions or, uh, team control extensions and other, or other sports where you say, Hey, I had a great two years. I think, uh, the old Drew Rosenhaus, I've outperformed the contract that I'm getting. So, uh, I am going to test free agency and I'm gonna forgo, I'm not going to exercise my option for the other two years. Conversely, you could say, from a, uh, promotional standpoint, Hey, we'll sign you for two years. You go, oh and four, you miss weight, you lose, and or you win. And you, and it's, it's a ugly fight. We're just going, we're, we're not going to exercise the contract, and then you, you are out on the, you, you know, we, we don't have to pay you x amount of money. The reason why I think the, this would be, uh, interesting, um, compromise for these contracts is because one, it allows at least some sort of stability for a fighter for two years. You get two, you, you get two years where you can prove yourself within the promotion. Uh, two, you're, you, you know that you, where you're gonna be for two years, you, you, uh, are presumably going to get some fights to prove yourself. Uh, three, if you do great, you knock everybody out and you're all your fights. You could say, Hey, I wanna Reno negotiate this contract. I don't wanna exercise my, you know, eight and eight, eight, 10,000, 10,000 to win, 10,000 to show clause. I wanna get 40 and 40 now, you know, you could do that, uh, from the promotional standpoint, you, it's, it's low risk. If you don't like a fighter, uh, after two years, the fighter misses weight or he's, he's just not doing well for you. You could just, uh, you could just cut him with without anything to, to, uh, without having to, uh, shelve him or, or anything like that. And, uh, you know, if, but I mean, if you, if you liked the, liked the fighter, you could just extend them for the, the, the remaining remaining part of the, uh, contract. So they could still, you know, if you get a marginal fighter that's, uh, average and they don't, they don't opt out of their, they, um, they don't wanna test free agency. You could just keep 'em on for the four, the remaining four years of their contract, or you could cut 'em and renegotiate and, and have them start over again. So that's kind of what I have a suggestion, uh, that my suggestion is to have these source of contracts. It's, it's, I know it's probably not well liked prob from PE from everybody's perspective, because it's not long-term, uh, scenario, but it provides short term, um, movement, uh, mobility. I think the one thing that we saw with the UFC antitrust lawsuit is that fighters were upset because they weren't mobile. They couldn't be free agents. They, they were at a certain point where they were doing really well, but they were locked into their contracts. So something like an opt-out scenario would, I feel help be beneficial for everybody, because then you could at least, uh, test the market to see how it goes as far as like, Hey, you know, maybe I could get some more, some more money at, uh, the other promotion versus staying with, uh, what I, I'm getting right now with, uh, my, my, uh, my current deal. Got you. I mean, it's, um, couple things. I mean, boxing contracts, promoters, contracts, you know, in, in, in boxing right now, I mean, you'd never have a, a scenario where a promoter, if a guy lost like, you know, two or three times, like, um, I mean, unless they really thought he had some value. Um, you know, they, they, there's always an out in these promotional contracts, you know, if, if you lose once, you know, maybe you can get it that, that you have to lose twice. Um, but because there's, you know, minimum purses and so on, often it's, you know, if you lose then, then you have to renegotiate the, the, the terms of the deal. So in boxing, maybe more so in MMAA loss is, is very determinative of, of how your, the rest of your contract's gonna go. You're either gonna get cut or, you know, oftentimes they'll have that renegotiation clause in there where the minimums that you signed for are probably gonna get negotiated down. Um, you know, which it was always difficult for me because I'm kind of like, well, what if we don't agree to the new purses? Like what if we can't come to an agreement on that? Yeah. You know, so, so now we're in limbo, you know, we gotta you gotta have some sort of contingency for that as well. Um, but you know, it's funny 'cause Eric McCracken, um, came to me with, he, he had a proposal, I guess the A BC had asked him to kind of come up with some sort of, uh, form, uh, you know, contracts for managers. And, and his thing was, you know, he wanted to limit management contracts to two years. And I was kind of like, listen, if, if my contracts got, uh, when I was a manager, if they were limited to two years, especially when I had kids coming right outta the amateurs, I never would've signed them. 'cause I never would've made my money back. You know, it's like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, I think if you're gonna have a limitation on contract with either managers or promoters, I think a fighter has to have attained some sort of veteran status. Has to be at a certain level, at least at the, like the 10 round level, um, where, where you put, uh, some sort of limitation on contracts. I'm a, uh, like with the, with the mutual leave though, it's like, what, what if the fighter like wants to leave after two years, but the promoter's just like, no, I wanna keep you, you know, at, at these same numbers for the next two years. Is that, um, yeah, They exercise the option. Okay. Okay. I mean, They, they would just say, we, we, we we're keeping you, but at the current rate. Got you. Got you. So I mean, it's, it's definitely, uh, I, I could understand from the manage per perspective that like, you're not gonna be able to make on a, on a fire, but if at least signing with a promotion, I mean with a promotion, uh, maybe there, there is a little more, more headroom there as far as getting some, uh, uh, concessions into, into the, the, into the, um, uh, into, into staying or, or at least paying the, paying the, the rate. It's interesting 'cause John and I were just talking last week. I mean, we, I was, you know, we were, we were trying to figure out like what, what the contracts would look like if this Saudi, you know, league Mm-Hmm. League entity came in, came to pass, and um, you know, I, I happen to look at the LIV golf contract. Now, mind you, golf is a completely different sport, has a completely different, you know, um, model. Um, but those contracts, basically, the players, um, are only obligated to play for one year. And, and then they, and then there's like a, a renegotiation thing, um, where, you know, if they do well, then they can, they can renegotiate the terms and come back for another year. Or if they did really well, they can actually come negotiate like a two year deal. Um, you know, John was like, well, if, if, if that's the case, he's like, I'm all for it then, you know, if those are the contracts, uh, 'cause it gives, you know, it gives, uh, fighters mobility, you know, uh, yeah. And, uh, you know, that, that, that would be like a, a completely, you know, that that would, that would just be, you know, like that, that would, like promoters would, would hate that so much. But, um, you know, I mean, yeah, I mean, listen, they put money into the fighters, you know, I mean, especially, especially young fighters. I mean, you know, I, I, when I was, uh, managing fighters, especially in the early two thousands, I had a lot of young fighters. I had a lot of guys coming out of the class of 2000, the Olympic trials, all that. Um, so, you know, and, and it was fair. I mean, if the promoter's gonna give 'em a bonus and, you know, pay for all these fights that are, you know, and boxing, like the first 10, 15 fights are kind of meaningless. You know, you got a lot of fours and sixes and eights, you know, you're not making any money on those fights. Mm-Hmm. fighters aren't making much money. They're not of consequence on the world scene. Um, so it's, you know, the promoters are investing in the fighters. Um, so, you know, they need kind of a longer term contract. I mean, to me, honestly, when I saw those UFC contracts that had like the, the, you know, that, that provision, that that sunset clause Yeah. You, you don't see that in boxing contracts. Like, I was just like, holy, this is great. You know, like, and it, and it was clearly because the, the fighters had pushed them in this lawsuit, you would've never seen that clearly. Yeah. You know, they made so many contract changes to paper over the, the, the horrible stuff that was in there. Mm-Hmm. . Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, uh, you know, a sunset provision, um, you know, just a cap for years because what you, like you were talking about championship clauses. Yeah. That, that comes from boxing, you know, I mean, a guy becomes a champion, oh, you know, extends the contract two years or, or we get the next, you know, five fights or, you know, there, there's always an extension for becoming a champion. And you understand it from the promoter's perspective. They've invested in the fighter, they've gotten him to the championship, and now he gets to the championship, he's at the end of the contract and their out. You know, it's like they, they don't get to reap the benefits of the work they put in. So, so I, I, I get the championship clauses, but I think, you know, the, the, the sunset provisions to me are, are, are, you know, if, if that was something that was mandated in these contracts, I, I think that would be really valuable. Um, yeah, the, the opt-outs, um, I mean, it's interesting because you've got a lot of push and pull with that, and also you have to consider other, other things in the contract. Like I said, there's that renegotiation clause. Mm-Hmm. . Um, if, if, if a fighter loses or there's always, you know, especially in boxing one loss, most major promoters have it in there. You lose once they have, you know, the option but not the obligation to cut the fight. Would it be better if, if they, like you were talking about a veteran status is like after five pro fights, or after 10, 10 round, I mean, yeah, after they, uh, graduate to fight 10 round fights or 12 round fights, then they get the opt out provisions where they, the next, the next four, they next four fights, uh, they could test it out and then opt out after the fifth. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that makes more sense. Yeah. I, I, I think, uh, again, promoters will fight this tooth and nail, you know, because they, you know, if they've spent, I mean, nowadays, especially with how few shows there are and how few fights guys have, um, you know, if, if they get a guy to 10 round status and, you know, they only get him two fights the next year and they're still not, he's still not really in, you know, he, he's very promising, but, um, but you know, he still hasn't really graduated to the fights where, you know, the promotion's gonna make a lot of money off him. 'em, um, yeah. Limiting it to, to two years. I mean, I, I I, I don't know like what, what's, what's the language that you would put in there to to, to, you know, make everyone happy? I mean, again, Mm-Hmm. promoters are not gonna be happy no matter what Yeah. With a two year opt out. But I mean, the, the fact that, you know, if the fighter wants to opt out and the promoter doesn't, I mean, it's in essence a four year contract for the promoter. Mm-Hmm. , if they wanna keep the fighter they can and Yeah. And, and most times if he loses a fight anyway, they have the option to, to cut him. So, um, it, it may not be too objectionable to them. If, if they have the option to keep the person for, for four years, then, um, you know, I mean, yeah. I Mean, it's, it's just the thought as far as the mobility of a fighter goes, as far as, you know, if, if, if the, if the purpose is to protect the health and benefits, health and wealth of providers, then, you know, uh, the, the, you know, the, the final goal of the fighter is to make as much money as you can in a sport that doesn't where your, your, your, your, uh, your lifespan is very short. I mean, that and, and maximizing your, your, uh, the amount of time you have in the sport, then you, you kind of feel like this, this getting out of these contracts in a shorter amount of time, if you wanna get out of the contract. Now, if you could just stay, I mean, like I said, like they could, it could just be essentially a four year contract and, which is basically what the UFC has. I mean, I, it's ac it's a, based on the amount of fights, I think, but not, but essentially for your contracts. But, you know, again, um, you, I, I see from the promoter side, you know, you gotta, you, you'd have to make back the money. 'cause at, in the very initial terms start of their, their careers, you, they're not really doing much as far as making money for the promoter. Yeah. They're, yeah. It, it takes a long time these days, you know, it used to be because there were more cards and, and, and so on, you know, fighters fought a lot more. Um, um, nowadays, you know, there's only a few promoters out there who put on a lot of cards 'cause they have TV deals. Yeah. Um, so, uh, and, and even their guys, I don't know that they fight more than like four or five times a year. So if you're putting your guy, turning a guy pro, let's say he fights, you know, four, four rounders, four sixes and four eights, like, he's probably gonna be into year three of the contract before he even sees a 10 rounder, you know, . So, yeah. Um, if that, you know, some guys take even longer. So it's, you know, um, yeah, it's, uh, I don't know. I think there'd be a lot of pushback from promoters on that, just, uh, just because it's, uh, you know, the, the length. But, but like I said, if, if, if you, if you qualify that and say, you know, it's, it's the, it's the 10 round fighters, um, that, you know, I mean, I, I love, like I said, I love the sunset provisions because , there's always, there's, and, and that, that comes up in boxing all the time too. You never know when the contract's done. You know, there's, there's, there's injury extensions, there's, you know, um, oh, you got me rated, so now you tack a year on there, you know, you got me a title shot, you tack a year or two on there, we won the title. There's more time tacked on, you know, there's injury time. There's this and that. Like there, you know, the, it's, it's so not clear when the contract ends. And there's always fights about that. And then not only that, once you get there, then you've got the, you know, the stupid, uh, you know, exclusive negotiation period. Right. And the right to match. I mean, it's like murder to get out of these contracts. Yeah. And so a lot of those things, like I know in the UFC antitrust lawsuit settlement there on em, the, the limiting the time, uh, for writing the right to match and limiting the time, uh, for exclusivity of negotiations, uh, making that shorter, a shorter window, uh, as as opposed to what it, what it used to be. 'cause I think there, there really shortening, shortening the time, uh, for, for both to allow the fighter to go ahead and test the waters of free agents. Yeah. I I, I remember the, when the attorneys first started putting those in, 'cause I mean, I've been around long enough that those weren't always in boxing promotion contracts, , um, the right to match and all that. Um, and, and, and basically, you know, the, the promoter's attorneys were bragging that, you know, this is basically, you know, we've made it a never ending contract now, you know, it's like, you know, you know, I mean, if you, if you make the right to match, you know, for like a year or so, and then like the exclusive negotiation period is like 90 days. You've essentially added a year and 90 days to the contract that was already had a ton of extensions and all that. Yeah. So that's, I mean, I definitely would like to see some sort of, um, cap put on, uh, put on contracts. I like the idea of sunset provisions. Um, and, and yeah, that's, and I think those need to swallow up those stupid, uh, you know, right. To matches because they're, they're essentially just, you know, an extension of the contract. You know, I mean, you, you, you're, you're, you know, you, if, if your guy wants to leave, you know, you've gotta sit through that, that negotiation period. Then, you know, if he finds another promoter, you know, they have the right to match. And if they're smart, they put in there that all they have to match is the, uh, financial terms. So yeah. , so someone has to make some ridiculous, like, offer to you that, that, you know, this person's not gonna match, but then it puts pressure on you, you know, who's gonna make that, you know, who's gonna actually, actually do that. Yeah. So, uh, so yeah, man, that's, that's, so that's the hell of my question. Combats combat sport contracts, . So my question to you then, uh, Kurt, is then, so in, in an instance with Brian Garcia here, circling back to the very beginning, would the year away, would that count within his contract? Or does that, is that attacked on another year? I mean, I would think they probably have some, I mean, he's not able to fight, right? So he's, he's suspended, so that's gonna extend the contract, man, . So even though you have a sunset, so here's the, here's the lawyerly stuff. So even if you have a Sunset provision that there's a hard stop, does that mean that e even though he's suspended, uh, that Well, I mean, you know, look, looking at that, um, you know, we were talking about, you know, the UFC contract and he had gotten a, that basically the Sunset provision swallows it up. It, it should take out, you know, the, the, the contract has a hard stop at, at four years or five years, whatever you wanted to put it at. Even if your guy, you know, tests positive. I mean, obviously you could write it so that, you know, you make an exception to that because you see that's what the new UFC contracts look like. Yeah. , because they listen to the show Money podcast and they're like, holy, listen to that. Listen to ov go off on this, how stupid we are. Right? Okay. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna put some things in there. We can extend this sunset. You know, that was, it was pretty dumb of us to, to, to put a hard cap on this thing. You know, we, you know, so, uh, 'cause because then you got things like injuries with legitimate injuries. I, I understand. I, I understand like, you know, why you would extend a contract with legitimate injuries and things like that. But, um, you know, if you do have this sunset provision, it kind of puts, puts, puts a little pressure on ev on both, well, more, more along the lines of the promotion, uh, to ensure that this fighter does not, you know, that you get the fights in before the guy goes, goes away. Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, listen, there's, there's arguments on both sides, you know, I mean, you know, promoters are gonna hate us Sunset provision, and they're gonna say that like, you know, look, you've got Ryan Garcia, who's clearly a very, you know, lucrative fighter. He's gonna make you a lot of money. Um, but he does something really stupid. He takes a PED, you know, why should I have to like, suffer that, that, that, that that's on him, you know, that suspension is all on him. So, you know, why, why shouldn't that extend the contract, you know, um, across the board. But, um, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't know NFL or NBA contracts, um, but I, I don't think that they have extensions when guys have to sit out. I mean, if they sign, they may not get paid. , Uh, you know, uh, that's a good question. I I don't think they extend, they don't extend, yeah. They don't extend, like rookie tears, his ACL in the first game, and then he's out a year, year and a half, Or he tests positive for peds. Yeah, he test or he could get, yeah, like baseball, there's a couple, there's a baseball player that was, uh, just got nine, uh, no, 180, I don't know, a year suspension, you know, things like that. I mean, I don't know what you, I don't think it, it doesn't extend the contract, but, but they also, you know, the fighter or the player doesn't get paid and well, here, Ryan's not gonna get paid. He's not fighting. So, yeah. Um, but Ryan's, Ryan's all over. I mean, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he's on Dancing with the Stars this fall or something. , he's, he's like, I, you see him, he is at, uh, he's getting beer thrown at him by Caleb Plant, uh, the other week. And he was playing poker with Jimmy Butler, you know, he's all over the place. I don't know what's going on. He trashed a hotel in Beverly Hills. He got arrested for that. Yeah, he was, he's all over. He was drinking on that, on that and, and eating at the table when he was playing poker with Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler did not seem happy about that. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. His act is wearing thin kind of all over the place. I don't know. But he, I could see a guy, a guy like him, you know, will look, will look all and all of a sudden his, his suspension's over because he's been doing all these, he's been going all over the place, being on all these kind of weird podcasts or, uh, at the poke poker tables or at any kind of, or at, uh, at fights, getting into fights. I don't know. . Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm sure he can, he can find some ways to make money, uh, other than in the ring. So he's, he's not gonna starve, that's for sure. Yeah, that's for sure. So what else did you have, uh, for the Ali Act? Oh, so like a co uh, just just to, to round out a couple things. And I, I think this, this one, I, I, I would, uh, bounce off of you a DR in contracts. So mainly, uh, arbitration for the vision for contracts rather than a lawsuit. Um, rather than having to file a lawsuit, I would think that there would be more, more attempts to at least try to, uh, solve these issues for fighters. Because with, with lawsuits, you get a lot of, um, we've lost it. So it takes a lot of money for, and you find that a lot of fighters don't bring their grievances forward. I'm sure you Sure. You know, uh, so a DR and contracts and taking, taking the case to ar uh, taking a case to arbitration, um, was another suggestion. Um, um, the, uh, require, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, Were, were you gonna talk about the requirements for a DR or No, no, no, no. Go Ahead. Yeah, let's, let's, let's talk about a DR because, um, I don't know. I, I think we need to bring John Nash and Zach Arnold in here because they're like so adamant against, um, arbitration, right? Because they're saying, you know, I mean, they're basically saying, oh, well, you know, I mean, first of all, wasn't there just a case that came down? You cannot bring a class action to arbitration. Um, Oh goodness. Where was, where was I? Uh, I do not, I believe so. Yeah, I believe so. But I dunno where, where I heard that. So, um, you know, the fact that there are arbitration clauses and, and also in, in, in the UFCI think there's also like, well, you know, you're now agreeing that you won't be part of a, a, a class action. Yeah, yeah. And the U Ffc, they, but, and they have arbitration clause, Now they actually have added arbitration clause. Right, right, right. Yeah. And waive, you have class action. You waived your right to a class action in the UC. Those, those are the contracts. Right. It, it's funny because us lawyers, you know, we were taught that, you know, alternative dispute resolution, you know, it, it's shorter, right? I mean, that's, that's the, uh, that's, that's the rationale is that it, it's shorter. You know, the, the, it's, it's, it doesn't take as long, you know, discovery rules are, are, are looser. Um, and you can move things along quicker in, uh, in a DR. Um, but in practicality, do, do you think that a DRI mean, I guess because the, there, it's a shorter period of time, you're not paying your lawyer as much, but you also have to pay generally, right? You have to pay the neutrals. Um, Well, that's the problem, . That's why it's, these are suggestions . But, so, um, You know, I, I, I had thought about this too, and I'm just like, if you formed a boxing league, it would be great if there was like this neutral arbitration panel that, but it was like, who's gonna pay them though? But it's like, yeah, you, you, you'd have something, some sort of mechanism where, you know, it doesn't become cost prohibitive, you know, like it's, yeah. Like, I don't know, you'd have some sort of neutral panel, but, you know, if the league is paying them though, they're compromised , you know, it's like, I dunno how you would set it up where, where somehow it's, I Think that's the whole thing where Roger Goodell was the was the arm. Right. But, um, you know, I I I, I, I think that when, when we're thinking about, uh, what, what am I trying to get out with this is that I think that the grievances by boxers are, most of them are never hurt. So, uh, I think the m ladin mild just case I is, is a case that I, I had written about in which the heavyweight boxer, in his contract, he had a, um, a clause, which in, in included, you know, the fighter has a two, if there is a, essentially saying, if there's a problem with the contract, uh, you must notify the, the promoter of your grievance and give them X amount of days. Write the cure, basically. Right? Right. It's breach X amount of days Breach and cure provision. Right? Yeah. So, so basically he, and it's, it's in the court filings. He did this, he actually wrote out, I believe, I'm sure it was either him or his dad wrote it out, said, this is what I, this is what I'm, you know, what I believe, I am not being serviced in within the contract. I'm not getting X amount of fights per the whatever clause. I'm not getting the rank fighters that I was promised X amount of clause that, and then, you know, how are you going to fix that? And the response from the promoter was, we're not gonna fix it. We, we've done all we can do. And that's deny a request. So, I mean, so there are, uh, mechanisms you can utilize. I mean, the, but like a note, I mean, a breaching cure, it seems to be like the first, first si first thing you can do. But if you are at an impasse, it's very, it, it is very hard for you to go ahead and cure that provision, or, um, it is very hard to, um, to short of filing a lawsuit, uh, get the other side to agree to come and get the table at least . Yeah. I mean the, the, the breach and cure paragraphs. I mean, I don't know, just, I don't know. In, in, in my practice, I, I know, I don't know. And I'm not giving legal advice, not giving legal advice. But I, I'm just saying, like with those provisions, I, I've always felt, you know, you have to make it pretty explicit that if the breach is not cured, you get to terminate the contract. If, if, if, if that's not in there and it's just left open-ended, then you have, then you end up like mild, just you have to file a lawsuit, you know? Yeah. And I think that's why Mild just did it because he, he, he, he, he felt that it was still a breach and they did nothing about him. Right. And, but I mean, with, yeah, I mean, oftentimes the promoter will be like, no, no, we didn't breach, we didn't do this. No, you can't terminate the contract. I mean, you know, I've dealt specifically with that promoter who he was dealing with, and, you know, we ended up having to file a lawsuit too. 'cause they, they didn't agree that there was a breach and this and that. So, I mean, even if you have that termination clause in there, it may not, you know, you're still gonna end up in court. So, um, yeah, I mean, you know, A-A-D-R-I mean, I, you know, I don't know, maybe there's information out there, you know, uh, relative cost of a DR as you know, uh, compared to, uh, a, a full on lawsuit in state court or federal court. Um, I tend to agree with you. I, I, I, I would like to see more a DR, you know, I know that, uh, that's something that, you know, John and Zach don't agree with because they think, you know, it's private. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it, it, it, it d r's are confidential, you know? Mm-Hmm. . So there's no precedent that gets set. It's not public, you know, it's all behind closed doors, but, you know, it's still, you know, a binding decision that gets made. You know, and, and hopefully you, you're finding neutrals. I mean, generally with a DR too, you're finding people who act instead of a judge who may not know the sport, you're generally finding, trying to find a neutral who's dealt with these issues in sports, or more importantly, like combat sports, hopefully combat sports. So, um, yeah, I mean, that, that's, you know, that's definitely something that, you know, and, and, and in promotional contracts that I've seen, some have had that a DR provision in there and others haven't. Um, so, um, but yeah, I think a DR does go a lot faster. , You know, I, I think that it's, it's one of those things where you, it's, it's a lesser two evils. I, I mean, we've just seen this UFC law antitrust lawsuit go 10 years, so Right , right, right. And cost like It's car. It's, it's, it's definitely, definitely hard to, um, to decipher. But, um, so one of the other things that I had suggested, um, which goes, uh, totally opposite of the A DR in contracts is for the ALI Act, uh, if you are able to prove, uh, that there is a violation of the ALI Act, you are, you get treble damages. So, um, this is the other side of the A DR, because now I'm saying all of the, uh, hungry lawyers out there, if they see this, uh, if they see, um, uh, a fighter that, uh, has been screwed over by a manager or promoter, they could take the case and with the hope of getting trouble damages in, in, in a loss. So this, this would, uh, this would be one of those suggestions that I have, which would promote the utilization of the ALI Act. Now, may it could be used as a weapon. No, no doubt about it, but it, it definitely can enforce any egregious violations of that act. Right. Right. But I mean, you, you've studied this, right? You've followed cases, uh, ALI Act cases. I mean, are there a lot of, like, I mean, I'm just trying to think off the top of my head, like a, an ALI Act case that where there was, you know, major damages. I mean, the, the, the mildest case right there, were they camec With the big one? I mean, that's the one, that's the one, that's the only one that I've, I I've looked at and short of seven, short, short of any, any cases, seven. But this is the one where it's gone to a jury and they found viol a violation of the alia. So I, I, I think you would have to go back to, um, I think Jeff Lacey had a fight, uh, had a, had a lawsuit way back when, uh, in which they survived a motion for summary judgment of the ALI Act. So they didn't really prove the ALI Act because, uh, but they did survive. They found issues of fact, uh, that there could, could be possible violations. And then after that, after the motion for summary judgment, they settled. Right. So, uh, I, I would count, I counted that simply because there's not a lot of history of people, uh, succeeding or going to trial and arguing before jury and getting a verdict, uh, on behalf of the all the acts. So what I'm trying to say here is this would, from this would, uh, um, motivate lawyers to take these cases if they found something like Milds who had 200, I believe the actual damages were something around, uh, 200, 200,000. Well, it was like, it was like punitives, right? Weren't the punitives like, oh, it Was punitives. Yeah. But like, uh, he had actual damages proven, um, I would wanna say, I had to look it up, but like, it was, it was over a hundred thousand. So if you travel, travel that, you know, that's, that's a good, that's a good healthy sum. So, right. Um, I mean, and that was one of the things, again, in the UFC antitrust lawsuit, that was the only concern out there for Zfa is like, if we get hit with a tre with TRE damages, and the, and a jury believes the damages they, they say that are, have been, uh, have been suffered, then we're in deep trouble . So, uh, it, it does pro provide a little bit of insecurity on a part of a manager promoter because they're concerned that they don't wanna get hit with a big, big, uh, big, uh, verdict. Right, right. I, I think you also, you, you said something about stiffer penalties for sanctioning bodies as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stiffer ver yeah, stiffer. So I, you know, this is the one where it's, it feels like the sanctioning bodies, and I don't wanna screw up the, the names of them, but certain sanctioning bodies, uh, allow things to go, go forward without, without enforcement. And, uh, just from an outside, I mean, I don't know the insider's viewpoint of certain, certain, uh, sanctioning bodies, but I feel that those, uh, that, that, um, if there's stiffer penalties for the sanctioning bodies, they will be less apt to let things go. And yes, the problem is who is going to be the regulator and enforcer of these, of these penalties? Well, right. Um, that, that is, I, I, I, you know, that would, that would be, um, you something that we'd have to have to, to, uh, think about. But like, as far as who, who would enforce 'em, you could, I mean, if you would add that within the ALI Act, it could be something where, where it's either a fighters, a sanctioning body, or a promoter that chooses a sanctioning body or something like that. Or it'd be nice if they actually gave the ABCs some sort of power to, uh, to affect something with, I mean, you know, like, like I said to John last week, you know, you had a couple years ago, uh, the president of the ABCs and Mike Zuli, um, coming after the WBA after, there was like a really poor decision where kind of the WBA house fighter won a really controversial decision, and they had a, a judge in there who was like, related to somebody in the WBA and, and, uh, you know, the, the, the president of the A BC was just, I, you know, this was horrible. But, you know, you know, basically the A, B, C had, um, given guidelines to sanctioning bodies again, no teeth in, in the, you know, the Congress gave them no teeth to enforce this stuff, unfortunately. But there were guidelines that they had to get rid of all these multiple champions. There should only be one champion per division, no interim champion, champion in recess, you know, regular champion, super champion, you know, and, and Missoula was just like, you know, power of Congress be damned . He's just like, listen, listen, WBA, if you don't start fixing this stuff, you know, we're gonna think about, you know, um, not recognizing you and, you know, and not sanctioning your fights, uh, within our states. So the WBA, you know, for the most part, you know, they, they, they attempted to, uh, to unify a bunch of the titles. They still haven't completely unified them all, and they're still probably creating some interims here and there. But, um, Yeah, I, I think it's, it would be nice if the A, B, C got a little more power, though. You know, a lot of people have problems with the A, B, C too, but you know, that that's the best we got right now, . Yeah. I feel, yeah. And you know, there's same thing with MMA, there's not a central organization. You know, one of the things that I, I suggested was having, adding an administrative governing body, OOO overseeing, uh, boxing. But obviously that would be wide by everybody . Um, but, but yeah, there's not a regulator within the, uh, MMA world either to oversee what's going on. I mean, mainly it's the UFC just doing, making end roads with regulators and telling the regulators what to do. I mean, that, that, I mean, that's, that's, I mean, and it's, and from outsider's perspective, it seems like that's the same with boxing, except boxing has multiple layers in which, uh, you have different sectioning bodies ruling different fiefdoms, um, around the world. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. John and I got into that, uh, last week about the, the, the U, the UFC, it's like, oh, people call them a league, but there's like, there's no league rules, you know? It's all done by the whim of, you know, Dana and, and who is whoever is your tenants are, you know? Yeah. Like, uh, hunter Campbell who have you, whoever the matchmaker is. Mm-Hmm. , um, they make the fights, you know, there, there's, there's no, like, you know, mandatories, there's no eliminators unless they make 'em, you know? Yeah. Um, you know, there's, there's no rule book for the UFC. It's just, it's made up as it as it goes along. So, yeah, It's, and that's one of the things that with the Ali Act that I didn't even get to with, with respect to the rankings, is that, you know, it, it, it's, uh, it, the rankings aren't that important in the UFC as it in co as the, as it comes to, uh, making fights for, for the title. I mean, it's just whatever Dana White thinks, whatever, you know, some, one of his, one of his friends thinks, Hey, you know, what would be cool is John Jones fights X, you know, that kind of thing. And then, then you also have the issue of fighters wanting to move up in weight class to become a double champ. And you got all of this. So basically leaving the, the, you know, if one, the lightweight champ was to play a fight at welterweight, then you got the, the lightweight, um, title vacant for a dormant for, uh, X mount period, while the lightweight title the guy is, is, is fighting for the wealth weight type. So then, then if the lightweight title guy wins, then do you make the, uh, then you make an interim, and then you got the interim, you know, it's, it's just a whole, it becomes a whole big mess if there's, there's no, if there's no, um, uh, no order as far as rankings go. And then it also for, for the fighters, if you fight your way up to be the number one contender, and then, uh, Dana says, Hey, you know, you are a wrestler guy. We want striking, so we we're gonna have the number three guy fight for the title. You know, that's, that will, you know, that seems, you know, like I think John was talk talks about is just that the whim of, uh, Dana wide and the matchmakers. Right, right. Right. Yeah, there's no, there's no right in your, in your rating. That's another thing we've, we've talked about, you know, in, in boxing, there was a whole lawsuit with the WBA back in the early eighties about, um, you know, what the leading available contender actually means. And it, and it needs to mean something. And it should mean, you know, you know, you've got a rating of one through 15, it should go orderly , you know, like Right. It should be logical. You can't just say, well, you know, we don't want this guy, you know, we, we want the number six guy, because, you know, his promoter's waving a check in our face, you know, number three guy, you know, uh, his promoter's not doing anything. You know, it's, it's those, the, if those aren't, if that's not in your rules, then you know, you need to, uh, you need to respect the rankings. So, um, yeah, it's un it's unfortunate that, that, uh, that UFC, you know, they, they have ratings. And I mean, I mean, I think even, I mean, I, I honestly, to be honest, I don't really watch much UFC, but I've seen, um, a couple main events where, where they advertise it and they'll put the rating of the fighter up there. Like, it's like, oh, this is number three versus number five. But it means nothing That that's the thing. It, it really doesn't, because, you know, if you'll, they, they say, you know, similar to boxing with a house title Eliminators, you know, so like two, two title contenders fight, and then the winner is supposedly going to fight the champion. But what it al always happens in the UFC is the guy who won actually, uh, gets hurt so he can't fight. So the guy who lost becomes the de facto and a number one contender. So, I mean, so the question then is like, do these fights even matter? I mean, we just the fights, the fight, I mean, which is, I think the, what the UFC is trying to, uh, ingrain into us is like, Hey, you are fights, they're very exciting. You know, it doesn't matter what number is behind your, you know, like, what, what number these guys are. But they're, they're exciting fights and we wanna put them on. So, you know, the, you it with the, it's different. I mean, I guess boxing, it's DI see that Bo boxing is different because at least there's, there's more of a, um, I I, there's more of a ranking system and you know, action fi there's, there's fights there. But with Bo, with MMA, you, you have more of a mix of what the mixed martial arts, you have a mix of what kind of, uh, sport, uh, what kind of, uh, fight these guys are gonna do. Like either they're wrestling or they're strikers or they're, or whatnot. And, uh, Dana, uh, Dana and these matchmakers will put together whatever fight they think would be more exciting to put in front of fans to and who will buy the pay. Right, right, right. So it's, it's basically the commercially viable rankings as opposed Yes. To the, uh, results oriented rankings, which unfortunately in, in boxing, because we have to go with the sanctioning body ratings aren't necessarily results oriented or merit oriented. It's just, you know, in essence, you know, who, uh, who came to the sanctioning body, who lobbied them, you know, who, who gave money to the Bagman , you know? Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's neither is a very perfect system at this point in time. You know, there's probably a, you know, a, a little more sense and structure with, with boxing, but unfortunately, uh, you know, it, it's also suffers from corruption and, and just, you know, I don't know, uh, a lack of true structure to it. But, but anyway, on that, on that entirely depressing note, I'll, uh, I'll let you go, man. I really appreciate your time. Uh, take your time out and, uh, let people once again know to find you on, uh, social media and, and otherwise. Okay. So Jason Cruz mma is the website. Mm. A payout on Twitter. Uh, you could find me there. And then the YouTube channel is where, uh, I post the legal submission, uh, biweekly or something of that, whenever something comes out that's cool. Uh, at Jason Cruz at on YouTube. Awesome. Awesome. All right, my man, thank you for, uh, thank you for taking the time. Really appreciate it. And Kurt, thank you so much. You could, uh, you could, uh, delete out the, the parts where I don't make sense, . We'll make it a short, it'll make a five minute video. . I'm leaving it all in Jason. I'm leaving it all in. All right, man. Take care. Alright. Take it easy. Thanks Al. Sure. And that will do it for another edition of the Boxing Esquire podcast. I'd like to thank Jason for taking the time to speak with me. If you like the podcast, please leave a comment or a rating on iTunes, Spotify, SoundCloud, or wherever you access the boxing Esquire podcast. I really appreciate it, as it helps new listeners find the podcast. And also, do not forget, if you want to check out a rough transcript of this podcast, you can find that on boxing And until next time, so long, everybody.

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